Google and low code: chatting with Amit Zavery, VP/GM and Head of Platform, Google Cloud

Welcome to the ninth episode of the Low-Code Ninjas Podcast

Low-Code Ninjas shines a light on industry thought leaders and the strategies they embrace to do business successfully in an app-first, unpredictable world.

Meet our hosts

John Koetsier and Peggy Anne Salz

John Koetsier
John Koetsier is a senior contributor to Forbes, host of the TechFirst podcast, and a mobile industry analyst.

“Previously, he was the Mobile Economist for TUNE and the VP Insights for Singular.”

Peggy Anne Salz
Peggy Anne Salz is a mobile analyst, a top 30 Mobile Marketing influencer and a nine-time author based in Europe, I track and document the trends, companies and innovators shaping how we do business and engage with consumers across the multiple screens, devices and apps that define our daily lives.

IN THIS EPISODE OF LOW-CODE NINJAS :

Google’s not just self-driving cars, AI assistants, internet search, and email. It’s much, much more … including low code in the enterprise. We’re talking healthcare, automotive, and many other verticals.

We dive into the era of low code and what it’s unlocking with Google’s VP/GM and Head of Platform for Google Cloud, Amit Zavery.

Topics include AI, enterprise, consumer, citizen developers, Google Cloud, low code (of course!), no code, and much, much more.

Amit Zavery:

Amit Zavery is a result-oriented transformational leader with deep technical knowledge and proven business acumen. He is a Vice President of Product and Engineering for Google Cloud. Previously he was an Executive Vice President and General Manager of Oracle Cloud Platform and Middleware products generating more than $6 billion of Oracle’s revenue annually. He led Oracle’s product vision, design, development, and go-to-market strategy for cloud platform, middleware, and analytics portfolio and oversees a global team of more than 4,500 engineers.

Google Cloud Platform:

Google Cloud Platform enables developers to build, test and deploy applications on Google’s highly-scalable and reliable infrastructure. Choose from computing, storage and application services for your web, mobile and backend solutions.

Full Episode Transcript

(This transcript has been lightly edited for length and clarity.)

John Koetsier: Low code might be revolutionizing software development. But Google is revolutionizing where we can use it … and how. Welcome to Low Code Ninjas. My name is John Koetsier. 

Peggy Anne Salz: And my name is Peggy Ann Salz. And today, John, we’re going to be talking about Google, AI, the cloud, and of course, what we do here, right? Low code.

John Koetsier: Absolutely, Peggy. And you know, it’s funny, ’cause when we think of Google — when I think of Google, I think search, email, AI, productivity apps, self-driving cars, all that stuff … and super smart developers who are building some of the most technologically advanced apps and software on the planet. But, some of those super smart developers are actually building tools for — well, maybe me, maybe you, maybe the rest of us.

Peggy Anne Salz: That’s the whole idea. And if you’ve been watching — and I know you have, John — recently Google bought AppSheet. That’s an AI-powered business automation platform that lets anyone — that means us too — create apps, right, without having to code. That’s the whole idea. And also Google Cloud at a higher level is leading the charge to help others do that. So it’s about people, but it’s about businesses. It’s about digital transformation — that’s the topic we love here, because it’s all about unlocking the creativity of everyone. And we’re going to talk about that today, because we’re going to be having our chat with Google’s General Manager for Cloud, Amit Zavery. Welcome to Low Code Ninjas!

Amit Zavery: Thank you, Peggy. Thank you, John, for having me. 

John Koetsier: We are super happy to have you, Amit, thank you for joining us. Amit, let’s start right here: why do we need low code and no code in the enterprise? 

Amit Zavery: Yeah, I think we’ve been talking to many of our customers who are large users of cloud services. And I think the developers no doubt love the technology and the things we offer in our cloud today. But there are a lot of their partners inside their enterprise who are not able to leverage the benefits of building an application, or taking the advantage of security and underlying technologies to be able to build those applications easily. They have to wait for the IT counterparts or developers to kind of help them implement the business workflows or make them more productive. And that usually takes a long time in terms of priorities for IT. So we wanted to make sure that we can still provide the power of our cloud services, but in a much easier way for everybody to kind of get advantage of it. So we’ve been talking to those customers, we said, ‘What would you kind of — how can Google help you? And everybody wants to be very productive and be able to build applications. And that’s really where we started kind of delivering this idea of no-code based application development which runs on top of our cloud services, but it’s easy for anybody to kind of take advantage of. 

John Koetsier: So I could just build a back office application?

Amit Zavery: Yeah. So usually what typically we’ve seen with our no-code platform is users basically have a lot of backend systems today. And most enterprises have legacy applications — so any other applications which have a lot of data and information they need — but they’re all siloed or are kind of run in a different way. What you can do easily now is build a mobile app or build a business workflow, without having to understand how the data is formatted, what the interfaces are, writing any code … we can abstract out the interfaces to APIs and suddenly it’s all available through a SaaS service, and you kind of write your business logic and build an application.

John Koetsier: That sounds really cool, Peggy, because I sucked at SQL, so that would be really neat. I wouldn’t have to know the data model or anything like that. One final question before I turn it over to Peggy, Amit, and obviously this is great for individuals, business managers, marketing leaders, whatever … just people in the company who want to build something, so citizen developers. 

Amit Zavery: Exactly.

John Koetsier: But do actual developers want to use this sometimes too because they can just build something so much faster?

Amit Zavery: Yeah, we’ve seen that. I think always typically what we’ve seen with an adoption cycle is that, no doubt, citizen developers for inside a department, an analyst who wants to build an application for the four/five users they have in common, with the same kind of requirements. And slowly starts becoming very prevalent across the different departments very soon. And then IT or developers get involved, because they want to provide standard compliance things; they want to make sure [the] right people have right privileges. So you started seeing a lot more adoption now coming from IT because they want to be part of that community and provide all the help and reuse in many cases as well. So no doubt, I think it is still meant for citizen developers when we build a lot of the no-code tooling, but it of course helps anybody else to build and quickly deliver productive apps. 

John Koetsier: Cool.

Peggy Anne Salz: Mm-hmm, and that’s of course transformational. That’s what I got excited about at the start, John, because this is not just about tech — we’re talking about something bigger. And to your point, and what you’ve been calling it, Amit, you’ve called it already, you know, ‘2020 was the year of low code.’ I’d like to just stop right there and understand why? 

Amit Zavery: Yeah. I think 2020, for example, all of us are kind of dealing with COVID-related issues, right? 

The big thing which we saw for many of our customers was the need for digital-based contents … mortgage lenders, car dealers. People who used to interact with their customers in person are not able to do that anymore, but they still want to run their business. And if you have to now make the digital front end through a whole coding experience and build all those applications, it would have taken a long, long time. 

And who knows that business logic better than the end user — the analyst who’s interacting with the end user. They know what they need. 

Telehealth … all these kinds of things have become very prevalent since March, as you know. And that’s why I think we saw that spike in terms of the user community picking up no-code based tools and platform, because they wanted to provide those applications and interfaces to their end users very quickly, and still be able to run their business in a very, very, productive manner … because of the way things were becoming important for them to kind of run. So that’s what we landed up seeing, a huge adoption, and the no code became like a — just a savior for many of those businesses.

In healthcare, no doubt, we had a lot of hospitals who were using it to kind of keep track of beds, PPE supplies. We had mortgage lenders who are doing all of the paperwork through our automated system, built on an application on AppSheet. We were seeing similar kinds of things in the car dealership. So we saw that across the board. Initially we used to see our no-code tools being used for departmental apps inside the organization … of course procurement, or supply chain management, or travel approvals, those kinds of usual internal employee-centric business processes. But since March, we see now that kind of go outside the organization into the customer-facing realm as well, and then connecting all the backend data and making it very feasible for companies to continue surviving in this kind of a mode. 

So that’s why I thought that this last year … in 2020 it was really kind of eye-opening for all of us in terms of how low code saved many of these companies and allowed them to be relevant during a very difficult time for everyone. 

Peggy Anne Salz: I mean, I like that thought, and thinking about it from just the level of low-code first for the applications. Now you’re talking about building complete flows, you know, it’s not just about what we have to have in the application, in the service, but how does the company connect with itself, with its partners? So, on the back of all that, what is 2021? I mean, it’s not a fair question … but I would still like to hear what you think it is. If that was the year of low code, what is this? The low-code transformation, perhaps? Not to put words [in your mouth] …  

Amit Zavery: Yeah, I think the way I look at it is the no code is here to stay, and I think people are going to use technologies like this and platforms like this to build applications and make it easy for them to interact with all the different parties involved in the ecosystem. 

No doubt. 

How do we make it now even more relevant and make it more productive, but also make it more part of the overall development ecosystem as well? So what I’m seeing, and what we’re doing over the last year already, is bringing in technologies like AI … but not as kind of the answer for the end user that hey, this is AI please go use it. But how do I as a developer, people who are building the platform, use AI to make it easy for you to build an application? How do I have intent-based modeling built in, so that I know what you’re wanting to do and help you through it in a much faster way? Provide you a lot of the connectors to the backend systems, so that you as a citizen developer don’t even have to know where this data is coming from, or how it’s laid out. But I can see it easily in my palette and then be able to kind of deliver that application development environment very quickly. 

So AI bringing and making it a workflow … business processes, making it a little more smoother and predicting how/what and everything else everybody wants to do. So I expect, I think business flows and business applications all kind of connecting it together and providing low-code and no-code kind of technologies to make it easier for end users to kind of do what they need to do very quickly and easily.

John Koetsier: I love that answer, Peggy, because honestly, we can build 500 million apps, as we’ve seen research saying that we need 500 million apps, right? And we need them in lots of different places, but they’re kind of useless if there’s a little piece over here, and a little piece over there, and a little piece over there — it needs to connect back. And that, of course, is one of the dangers of giving the citizens the tools, right? Build anything, build anywhere … and that’s kind of a nightmare in a historical sense for IT people, technology executives, because what are these people using? What’s that team using? How can I manage everything? How can I control the data? How can I make sure it all comes together? But we’re seeing how that’s possible when you’re building tools on a platform where the data comes together. 

So, Amit, I’ve worked in enterprise. I’ve led startups. I talk to hundreds of companies a year, so does Peggy. I’m not sure I’ve ever met one that doesn’t need some level of digital transformation, which has been a big thing for maybe a decade, but we know that there was a massive increase in that and acceleration in that in 2020, as you talked about — all these processes that were manual needed to be digital, all these processes that were in-person needed to be online, other things like that. 

How can low-code and no-code tools help with digital transformation? 

Amit Zavery: Yeah, no I think that, as you mentioned, digital transformation has been talked around for many, many years. And some of the companies have been pretty aggressive in doing that enterprises. Some of them will be like, ‘Okay, I’ll do these pieces but not this one, I’ll take my time.’ No doubt, 2020 accelerated all of that. I mean, every enterprise I used to speak to, the first thing on the top of the mind was digital transformation, automating their business processes, digitizing that whole workflow. And what the no-code platform can do for those enterprises … one, is to really make it easy for the systems and the business processes which most of the analysts or the kind of  departmental line of business users know more about. Make it part of the overall digital transformation. As you said, a lot of users would build their things separately, and it was not part of the core ecosystem inside an enterprise. Now those two things need to now be coming more connected, because now that’s still top-of-mind for everyone that we should not have too many rogue applications running around without some kind of semblance of what’s going on inside an enterprise. So this is where the no-code connectivity in what we’ve done in our platform at AppSheet and the rest of those things we’re doing in Google Cloud is to really make sure we provide compliance tools, governance in the platform itself … so that citizen developer[s] don’t have to worry about it, but IT is part of the process. And this is what the enterprises are very excited about, and everybody we speak to we still are hearing and delivering this for enterprises. But we want to make it easy for the line of business users to build applications while IT participates in that process … without kind of stopping them or encumbering them with some kind of issues or telling them you can’t do this XYZ, right? You still want to make sure the right person has right access of data. You want to have all the security privileges, nothing should change — nobody should get access to information just because I built a no-code based application, if you’re not allowed to use that information. You need to have all the scalability requirements delivered so that thousands of users even just start using this thing — it should scale, it should not fall down and then you have to rebuild it again. You need all the different connectivity to all the different backend systems. So all that stuff which is required for any kind of enterprise application needs to be part of it, but I want to remove the barriers of building that application. So those two things are now coming together. And this is where I think the no-code tools and the platforms are, what we’re building with the backend system we built on Google Cloud, now all the compliance around all that stuff and governance around that makes it much, much more relevant.

John Koetsier: That’s genius. 

Peggy Anne Salz: That is. I can imagine a lot of developers and people saying, ‘Oh great! Now I don’t have to worry about that stuff.’ You know, because they want to do their thing. I talk a lot to companies in the gaming space, right? And it’s just like, ‘I don’t want to think about that. I want to make an amazing game.’ But no — it’s the privileges, it’s the preferences, it’s privacy, all of that. It all has to be done, but it’s great when it’s being done someplace else. And that’s why we’re talking here about … well, not just a shift that you’re watching, but what’s interesting is Google is also seeking to shape this … which I think is very important, because it needs to have that framework, it needs to have that guidance. And you’ve done that. We talked about one of your recent acquisitions, right, with AppSheet — but there’s others. I’d love if you could just walk us through some of the milestones on this pathway to unlocking low code.

Amit Zavery: Yeah, I think if you look at — I mean, Google of course, has been in [the] forefront of collaboration and communication and productivity tools with the offerings we had with Gmail, and things we do around Drive, Docs, Sheets, and all that kind of things. And now with the Workspace which brings a lot of video conferencing and everything else together as a very end-user tooling, but powerful platform underneath the covers. So the way we see this thing is that how do we now add more and more capabilities for an enterprise to be productive, as well as be secure and scalable? And this is how we’ve been looking at it from Google Cloud perspective. Let’s take the powerful platform we have where you can build applications, do any development and get online and start building very powerful applications on there that we have done things with containers, with Kubernetes, we have TensorFlow and AI — so a lot of those powerful technologies invented at Google but delivered to all the developer community to build interesting and powerful applications today. So we have thousands of users like that. And then as we go forward, we want to make sure that we kind of democratize or open that up to everyone. So that’s where the productivity tools with Workspace comes in place, running with that powerful platform underneath the covers. AppSheet acquisition was part of that strategy to really make it easy for you to extend that business productivity tools with a lot more ability to kind of create a workflow interface to the backend data, and make an end user very, very productive. So that’s how we looked at that. We also have technologies around API management where you can expose any backend services through a layer of APIs. So it abstracts out the complexity and the need to know how the underlying technologies or services are running, right? So the APIs are kind of the core of a digital platform now. As many, I mean, everybody talks about digital transformation, and that first thing everybody wants to do is to make an API layer so that anybody can get access to it appropriately through some kinds of rules. But now you have a much easier way to build applications around it. So we did an acquisition of Apigee many, many years ago. We did AppSheet as a no-code tooling. We’ve been buying a lot of other capabilities to really complete out a platform — like Looker, for example, for doing business intelligence and analytics. So all those kind of easy-to-use, very simple way for you to access that information which might be in every system out there. We want to provide and bring that connectivity to that, right? So we’ve been building a lot of those technologies. We’ve been buying some of this stuff and we’re bringing them all together as part of Google Cloud platform with the productivity tooling and no-code platform as well. 

John Koetsier: I want to talk a little bit about how people are using that. And you’ve shared already in this session, what some people are doing. You talked about car dealerships, right? Car dealerships using Google tools to build back office functionality. You talked about hospitals and the medical profession using those tools during a pandemic. Maybe, what were some of the most surprising uses that you’ve heard of using these low-code tools?

Amit Zavery: Yeah, no I think, to me, initially most of the users we used to talk to were departmental line of business users. So, that very quick change and without even like us having to do a lot of stuff on our end, suddenly be able to deliver any kind of application which could be consumer facing, and scaling your business processes, was pretty interesting for sure, right? I mean the car dealership was not something we were targeting. I mean, we usually talk to car manufacturers, for sure. Yeah, we would call and talk to some of the dealerships for running their internal business processes. But now them being able to now provide through a video conference demo/show a car, do a contract, and make their business to run and operate without having in-person interaction was definitely very, very interesting as well. So we saw that across many, many industries, right? I mean, you look at healthcare use cases were very different than what we had thought about before. I mean telehealth, we had doctors and patient interactions through applications built like this where you are chatting, talking about things, doing a video conference … but also collecting notes and information which is private and very important, going back into the backend to the patient systems.

John Koetsier: Yeah. Yeah.

Amit Zavery: So, how we connect all that stuff together and making that all happen were very … I think very interesting as well. 

John Koetsier: Well, Peggy, in the morning I sell cars; in the afternoon I build — I code applications with Google. So [laughing] … there you go. 

Peggy Anne Salz: I mean, what I think is exciting here, and I’d just love you to weigh in on this because I’m thinking as you’re speaking and, you know, everything happens at the fringe or at the intersection. That’s where everything exciting happens … the innovation. And the whole idea is that there’s like this big middle section — we’ve always been focused on large, large companies, but what I’m hearing here is that there’s a lot happening in the middle that’s going to be very exciting to watch. You know, car dealerships are not major companies, but unlock that, let them connect, and that might be where everything happens. Not because large companies are usually a little slower, right now they’re focused on other things in the world, right? But it sounds like it’s like, you know, a little bit of ‘we, the people’ is coming through here, or am I reading too much into that? I think—

Amit Zavery: No, no. You’re quite right. I think, as I said, the digital front end now is needed for everyone. So it used to be that most of the smaller enterprises or smaller businesses used to have to go through some third-party as their front end … typically.  And we look at marketplaces or most of the e-commerce was going through third-party most of the time. Now you see them all opening up their businesses directly to their buyers. And it could be B2B, it could be B2C, it could be to B2B2C — it could be any model, but their end customer, they are having a lot more direct interaction than they used to have previously. And then COVID has opened — if you look at the amount of business done outside the marketplace, back through a digital channel outside of like a centralized marketplace, it’s much higher than it used to be, pre-COVID. There were three/four big e-commerce marketplaces. Now there’s no longer that only case. You can still have your front end through and get it hosted and run it yourself, and you’ve done your own procurement, run your own supply chain … there are a lot of service providers like that. So how do you now give them the tooling and the platform to make their business successful without having to learn technology and without having to build huge, large IT departments? And that’s where I think technologies like no-code platform like AppSheet, what we’re doing with Workspace, and the integration between those kinds of things, makes it much more productive for them. We have a lot of SMBs and a lot of large enterprises of course, using Workspace today. Right, and they are using Gmail and they’re using Sheets and Docs and all that kind of stuff. And now they’re having a powerful platform like AppSheet attached to it, so that you can now build a digital front end as well. 

Peggy Anne Salz: I’m wondering where … you know, I would say automation, but I will say just AI in general, because this is a big deal and everybody wants to get in on it. Have you heard anyone, John, say they don’t want to put this on their stretch goal list for 2021? It’s big—

John Koetsier: That would be a no. [laughter]

Peggy Anne Salz: It’s really important, in particular for companies here in the middle, because they’re allowed now to connect and build their connected companies — which is what we have to do, it’s all remote work anyway. Where does AI fit into all this and also in your vision, Amit, as well? 

Amit Zavery: You know, I think AI has always been one of the big differentiators for Google … across all of our services. And I think, in the previous few years, AI was a platform and a direct service we provided to developers. And we continue doing that, we provide frameworks and all the tooling and everything else. But I think, second, over the last couple of years, the important step we have taken is to really embed AI, backed more centric towards industry solutions. Like, so what does a particular vertical — if you’re doing, say know your customer/KYC workflow. Or you’re doing as a bank, you want to make sure there’s no money laundering going on, how do you find that data or information inside your transactions? Patient management and interaction in healthcare … all of the things are verticalized industry-specific business processes. But they all need to be automated, and this is where we bring in the power of AI. I mean, call center automation, right? I mean, a lot of interaction happening through chatbots, answer the phone — can I deflect a lot of those things and make it much more productive for the end user who’s trying to find that information? So how do I bring the power of AI into those kinds of capabilities without the enterprise or the IT department having to learn everything inside out about AI? So we want to — we have a lot of good engineers, of course, at Google who understand AI pretty well. They can use it to build those apps and provide you the value and the benefits of it, without you as an enterprise having to deal with all the complexity. So how can I make it productive, make it happen quickly, but with the latest generation technology underneath the covers? And the good thing is that with the cloud service, all listings are running and operating in the cloud. I can make changes very quickly underneath the covers without the end user having to deal with any of this stuff. So we run it, we operate it, we understand the data models, we can bring all the different types of systems together for you and operate it for you. So that’s how I see AI … AI is an enabler and embedded technology, a very pervasive technology, but without needing to know the complexity. 

John Koetsier: Amit, I love that vertical focus because there’s this baseline layer of AI, right, for NLP or, you know, just understanding what is in an image, or other things like that. But to apply it to business problems — I remember I was talking to a VP at American Express and they were able to vastly improve their customer service and their speed of responsiveness to people opening an account or doing other things because AI had reduced their risk exposure by something like 80% or something like that, a huge amount. So that was very industry specific, vertical specific, but had a huge customer impact as well. I want to talk about tipping points. Most technologies that achieve scale do hit a tipping point and then we just see them cascade. Now you called 2020 ‘the year of low code’ and that’s when we saw a ton of investment. And we’re continuing to see a ton of investment in low code and no code. We’re continuing to see some mergers and acquisitions there as well. I want to talk about tipping points as it relates to low code. Have we reached that for low code or no code yet? Does it vary in different verticals or applications and how will we know when we’ve hit a tipping point for a low code or no code?

Amit Zavery: Yeah, I think that one thing is important to differentiate between no code and low code. I think that low code has been around, I mean, any kind of extracted IDE or [unclear] languages and all that kind of stuff. It’s always been like okay—

John Koetsier: How low does it go? [chuckling]

Amit Zavery: I can fake it, but not write a lot of code. I can still kind of build an application, and if I need to, I can look at the code … I can go to SQL code and make some changes. But typically that was geared to make the developer productive. What’s this no code, what we believe is important is it’s really no code. You should not have to see a single line of code. You shouldn’t have to understand anything as a builder of applications in terms of how the app is built. That’s not your day-to-day job. Your job is to understand the business process, your business requirements, and build an app and get your vision delivered as an app, right? So I think that’s really where now the technology has become good enough and powerful now with what we’ve done with AppSheet and other things we’re building in our platform to make that happen. Previously it was not possible. Most people, if you, most of the tools out there would kind of call it ‘no code’ or ‘low code,’ but fake it in a way — few things you can do with few clicks, and after that you have to go into some kind of IDE and start writing some code or at least change some parameters. We have made sure that what we do and we continue delivering is that you never have to do that. Sure, if you want to write code, there’s a lot of technologies Google Cloud provides. There’s never been any dearth of ability for developers to build things on our platform. Right? But, we also want to make sure that folks who are not really interested in that, we can still provide them the ability to do what they need to do. Maybe not to the extent that all the flexibility, but powerful enough to really make you productive and deliver those things you want for your business. So that I think is the tipping point, how many of those users we can really keep on meeting their needs, and the volume keeps on going up, right? 

John Koetsier: Mm-hmm.

Amit Zavery: And I think that what we’ll see slowly, and I think a lot of the low code providers, and I think like now analysts and everybody kind of jumble the two, and people kind of — when they start using it, they realize, oh my god, I got the wrong thing because that’s not really what I want it to do. So it’s important for the community to start thinking about that a little more, two separate kind of parameters. And there are a lot of value and uses for low code, no doubt, and a lot of users will want that. But there’s a larger, much — 10X larger community for no code. 

John Koetsier: Yes.

Amit Zavery: And that’s the one which we want to make sure we can bring the power of Google innovation and a platform to make that feasible for them to be using this kind of platform as well.

John Koetsier: Peggy, this is essentially Roblox for back office applications, right? Drag and drop. Here we go. [chuckling]

Amit Zavery: Yeah.

Peggy Anne Salz: And that’s going to be fantastic. I don’t know if you remember it, John, but a while back — I was thinking about it just now — there was a book and the title was just so frightening at the time because I don’t know code, and it was called Program or Be Programmed. Right? And it was like, is that what awaits us? I’m disenfranchised. That’s it? It’s over.

John Koetsier: Here’s your power back, Peggy. 

Peggy Anne Salz: This is some of it. This is some of my superpowers. I mean, you talk about your vision for it, Amit. I’m just wondering, do you think about what you’re unlocking? Do you think about what that can be concretely? Particularly—

Amit Zavery: No, I think we’re just scratching the surface, to be honest. I think that we accelerated some of these things in 2020. As more powerful the platform we deliver, and we continue to innovate and add a lot of capabilities, and I would ask you guys to try it out. I mean, go to AppSheet, build an app. I mean, there’s a lot of prebuilt apps you can make changes to, or you can build your own thing … put the data in Sheet and then build an app that you can share among families or among your employee pool and everybody else. And it’s a powerful way to kind of get things done. And so I think we are scratching the surface, as you were asking before, like, what are the things that surprised us? I think that a lot of things are use cases I never dreamt about, or thought about — or the things which have been done I don’t even know about now, which is what I want. I don’t want to know about all those things. I just want people to be able to do what they need to do, and if they’re able to achieve it, they don’t call us — which is good. [laughter]

John Koetsier: That’s excellent. Well, Amit, this has been a ton of fun. It’s been super informative. Want to thank you for coming on Low Code Ninjas. It’s been wonderful. 

Amit Zavery: Thank you for having me, Peggy and John. 

Peggy Anne Salz: Thank you, Amit. It’s been inspiring, really. And I do like the idea of having a few superpowers going into the New Year. And I’m trying to imagine John making an app right now, but… [laughter]

John Koetsier: I have made apps! I have built web apps. I have built mobile apps. I have literally done this. I suck at it, but I have done it. [laughter]

Peggy Anne Salz: That’s interesting. That’s it — see, there’s no end of the surprises here. That’s why everyone is tuning in, right? So, thank you everyone for tuning in. It’s been a great show. Thank you, Amit. And of course, like the show, share the show, sign up for it, encourage it, subscribe on all the usual platforms. And of course we want to hear from you this year. We want to understand how you’re using low code. If you want to find out how to be a guest on Low Code Ninjas — be part of the low code revolution that we’re building here, we’re documenting right here, John — you can of course get in contact with me on email. Yes, a little old school, but some people use it: peggy@mobilegroove.com. Of course, DM me on LinkedIn. And John, how can they get you? 

John Koetsier: Ohhh, they can email me at dev/nul — no, I’m sorry… [laughter]. I’m available on Twitter. I’m available on LinkedIn as well, and I occasionally do check my LinkedIn messages. It does happen once a year. No, a little bit more frequently than that, but yes, Peggy is the one to get in touch with. She’s in charge here — you are the boss. 

Peggy Anne Salz: Wow.

John Koetsier: So, [laughing] you are the one. But it has been amazing. Amit, thank you. Peggy, it has been wonderful. Looking forward to our next show. Until then … this is John Koetsier for Low Code Ninjas. 

Peggy Anne Salz: And this is Peggy Ann Salz, signing off until next time of course … stay safe, keep well, and we’ll see you soon.